Need help with RV electrical outlet...not like a household outlet?

[Dawn Michelle]

Hi all - 

Decided I would tackle replacing two of the outlets myself (they don't screw into the wall - the box hole was cut too large and one actually shows a melted insert).  So I ordered RV outlets (which match what are in there) but they don't come with instructions and every YouTube video I have reviewed look nothing like these (no side screws) and I can't get out the existing ones because the big wire runs into the top and out the bottom - not smaller wires that hook into the back or side of the outlets in the videos.  

These are the ones that have two catty corner screws and I guess their own housing?

Not finding any slack to move the outlet more than half an inch from the wall and I can't seem to reverse engineer from the new one to figure out how to potentially release it. There is a back fit piece with side clips, and I've loosened those but to no avail.  Certainly don't want to force it - so hoping someone here has these type of outlets and can walk me through the process?

I'm going to continue to google and maybe I can find some diagrams - I'll post if I get anywhere.

Thanks!

Dawn

[Dawn Michelle]

I will stop worrying!  Completely appreciate yours and everyone's input - I've really learned a lot with this little project - I started completely flummoxed why I couldn't pull the outlet from the wall to now understanding about how to wire an outlet fully and completely and PROPERLY.  I know more about pairing up breakers and amp ratings on outlets, grounding, stripping (romex is no longer a mystery)  and what it means for an outlet to be self-contained.  I am now familiar with a whole new aisle at Ace  (and found out that I knew more than the guy this time when I went in to ask - he tried to sell me a plastic side switch box....because it seemed small enough...sigh).  I now have a whole 'nother piece of the puzzle comprehended about my RV and how to reno and modify her SAFELY.   And in my book, that's priceless!

[Rich Thomas]

Sorry I waded in here  (IT WILL BE THE LAST) I like to help where I can, I was Under the impression there was no means offered to ground the box and felt comfortable with the solution. to me a screw is a screw and being green doesn't mean it is better, it is still a mechanical connector and subject to loosening as well Just the same as the outlet mounting screws. Electrically it is the same point. Sorry if I insulted any ones intellect it won't happen again I Quit.

[Dawn Michelle]

Ack - hope nothing I said sounded anything less than grateful?!  

If anything I said hit the wrong buttons please accept my apology!  It would sheerly be poor wording on my part as I have nothing but the highest respect for you and everyone on the forum.  I do fumble about a bit trying to explain and ask questions.

The discussion has been so very useful - your oar is always welcome in my canoe!!!

[Rich Thomas]

Dawn, you are a very gracious person and I admire what you are doing greatly. Nothing you said or done set me off. likewise, I hold John T in very high regards as well but felt I was being chastised somewhat  by some of his comments concerning the NEC code of federal regulations and your situation. Similar to the clear caulking debacle. and an other one a couple weeks ago on a thread I don't recall and bit my tong on. I would not put anyone in danger with my advice nor would I give advice that I was not qualified to give. A little about my background: I was an underground Mine Electrician and Maintenance supervisor for 27 years starting in the mines at 19. The last 12-14 years as lead Maintenance supervisor on a multi million dollar Long Wall System; one that I went to England to help design. I am qualified in low medium and high voltage circuitry by the United States Mine Safety and Health Administration. I have not worked in the Mines for 16 years do to a mining accident but I do go yearly for my annual Electrical Retraining and my cards are current. I am a State certified first class mine Foreman and a qualified Shot Fire. If we can't get it up and running I can blow the he!! out of it and make little pieces out of big pieces. I also am a former E.M.T.A. Letting my cards go as I can no longer do C.P.R. .Safety has been beat into me from my career and I am anal about it. I give a lot of thought into the advice I give and some times like in your case it maybe crude but it is functional and safe.  

[John "T" Nordhoff]

  Good morning Dawn,

    First A BIG THANK YOU to Rich Thomas and Lakota Wolf for their compliments to me and I also think you have been polite and asked good questions, plus I also hold everyone here in high regard. I appreciate everyones help and input and when a question is asked try to give an accurate professional polite response and NEVER would offend anyone (sorry if I did Dawn) but ONLY provide the best most accurate professional advice even if it may contradict other advice. To each their own opinions I say, were all just trying to help the poster NOT argue. You are free to take or leave any advice to your own advantage or peril (if wrong) including mine for sure as I'm long retired and rusty on the NEC. If an electrical question is at issue, consult trained competent professionals and the NEC NOT me lol I'm too darn old grrrrrrrrrrrr

  

  NOT to beat a dead horse to death lol but educate all here, unless the NEC has changed, when I was an electrical power distribution design engineer (my life's education, career and experience of which I'm proud) if a metallic outlet box wasn't grounded directly to the equipment grounding conductor as I described:

 

   1) An Inspector would NEVER approve it...

   2) It would be a violation of the NEC...

   3) A professional electrician would NEVER do it..

  BUT THAT DONT MEAN A PERSON CANT DO AS THEY PLEASE,  WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THINGS THE RIGHT, SAFEST AND NEC APPROVED  WAY  

   OR    TAKE SHORT CUTS AND DO IT THE WRONG LESS SAFE WAY. I'm NOT perfect and by golly I've done things wrong before when in a hurry MY BAD LOL

   FYI one among other reasons the box needs grounded DIRECTLY to the equipment grounding conductor is that requires ONLY ONE bond, unlike if you have one approved bond to the outlets green grounding terminal,,,,,,,,,then the metal top n bottom mounting strips have to rely on those skinny bevel headed screws to hopefully push up against the box (hopefully with no paper between) and ONLY then is the box  sort of "grounded" after TWO versus only ONE connection (one of which, the thin bevel headed screws designed to mount the outlet NOT provide any grounding path whatsoever). 

   ITS JUST NOT AS SAFE OR AS RELIABLE OR ELECTRICALLY SOUND OR AS LOW RESISTANCE AS A DIRECT SINGLE BOND WHERE A SOFT COPPER WIRE RING IS HELD DIRECT AGAINST THE METAL BOX PLUS THE MOUTING SCREW IS THREADED INTO THE BOX

 THATS AN INDISPUTABLE ELECTRICAL FACT NOT AN OPINION

 My background, I graduated from Purdue with a BSEE in Electrical Engineering and much of my 30+ year career was spent in Power Distribution Design when the NEC was my daily Bible. I attended numerous NEC seminars and classes over many years and learned just because someone doesn't understand the NEC and just cant figure out why their way isn't better DONT NECESSARILY MEAN THEY ARE RIGHT AND THE NEC IS WRONG. I used to question NEC methods but after years of training and experience was I able to understand why they did things a certain way, it was to save a life or prevent a fire, even if non trained non professionals couldn't understand it !!!! ONLY AFTER my career in engineering did I go to Law School for my JD degree and served as an Expert Witness in legal cases involving electrical related litigation. 

 SOOOOOOOOOOOOO if a question is asked I try to provide the best most accurate professional polite response as possible and NOT offend anyone and will continue to do so, and if that makes me a bad person you can just call me bad lol 

   Good safe electrical practice in a flimsy thin wood filed RV can save a life or prevent a fire you know which is why I take the time to educate as well as answer a question and I had no intention to offend Dawn or anyone else by providing BOTH what my training and background taught me, plus what the NEC has to say about something and the reasons why as I best "recall" so   NO WARRANTY.

 In summary, yall are free to wire your RV as you so please, I'm NOT here to lecture or impose my beliefs but I will continue to provide the best advice my education and life's experience has taught me which could save a life, and if that offends Dawn or anyone here I apologize, but I will still continue to do so unless Pat kicks me out. Please take no offense if my answer contradicts someone elses, to each their own, I try to remain polite and professional and NOT criticize another posters opinion even if my answer disagrees.

 Yall and Dawn feel free to use a less reliable, less safe, higher resistance, two NOT one connection, NON NEC approved method to ground a metal outlet box if you please, its your RV your money your life at risk EVEN THOUGH SURE 99% UNLIKELY. Its your decision NOT mine !!!!!!!!!! Again, its ONLY the box that's not correctly or safely grounded, I wouldn't loose too much sleep over it myself. 

 Thanks again to Mr Thomas and Lakota Wolf for their compliments above and I APOLOGIZE TO DAWN if my well intentioned answers offended her or anyone else.

 May God Bless and keep all here safe

 John T   BSEE, JD 

[Dawn Michelle]

No apologies to me guys :-)  I'm good!!  Just making sure everyone else was.  Everyone here sounds so interesting - a wealth of experience - just can't put a price tag on that.  Can't wait til I can make a jamboree/meetup and shake everyone's hands in person!  

[John "T" Nordhoff]

 A big THANKS Dawn, and I'm okay. All I try to do is publish well established sound electrical theory, facts and safety instructions which could save a life or prevent a fire and trust that doesn't somehow offend anyone here ??? it sure shouldn't, and was NOT my intention. Hard scientific facts and the truth sure doesn't offend me, if so I wouldn't have learned over the years lol and hey I'm NOT perfect and made my share of mistakes over the years and will continue to do so grrrrrrrrrrr

 Thanks also to Veterans

It is the VETERAN, not the preacher,
who has given us freedom of religion.

It is the VETERAN, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the VETERAN, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the VETERAN, not the campus organizer,
who has given us freedom to assemble.

It is the VETERAN, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the VETERAN, not the politician,
Who has given us the right to vote.

 

It is the VETERAN,
who salutes the Flag,

 

It is the veteran,
who serves under the Flag,

 

 ETERNAL REST GRANT THEM O LORD,
AND LET PERPETUAL LIGHT  SHINE UPON THEM.

 

 God Bless all here, keep safe and Happy Veterans Day

 John T

[Dawn Michelle]

I picked up the second outlet and went to install it today and now that the conversation has continued I do have a few questions:

On one end of the outlet the screw has a little plastic tab - is this what you meant John that should be removed?

The other end has a brass-colored tab:

And finally, rereading things - I may have misinterpreted the original instructions - it says to remove the tab between the brass fittings (hot side) if using two circuits - in my mind I was only using one, that it was just split so didn't remove it on the first installation.  But now I'm second guessing that as in these videos, often the outlet is at the end of circuit and only one is wired up - since my outlets are splitting the wire, do I need to remove that brass tab?

Thanks guys - and yes, John, a salute to all our servicemen and women, and veterans!!  Touching tribute you posted :-)  I

[Terry H]

I'm not an electrician, but I'll offer this and hope that John will jump in.

Based on your last photo - the tab (bridge) is only removed when you have two separate circuits, each on it's own breaker feeding that plug. This is most common in the kitchen area of a house where you are likely to plug in two high amperage appliances at the same time. One circuit the breaker flips. Two separate circuits you are fine.

If you did not remove the bridge in a two circuit situation you would have 240V to each side of the plug.

Highly unlikely you have two circuits to one plug in a RV. Generally they run one circuit to port side and another to starboard.

What you assume to be two circuits is actually more than one plug on the same line.

Power into the one you are dealing with and power out to feed the next in line.

I also hate an am scared of these blade type plugs so common to RV's.

As an aside, you likely have a GFIC receptacle in your vanity area. Generally these are the first in line on a given circuit. Should it trip it will take every receptacle downstream off line with it.

First check if you lose power to a plug.

Hope John jumps in here.

Edit: if you have an exterior pug it may also be a GFIC.

[Dawn Michelle]

Thanks for the response regarding the tab/bridge, Terry.  I thought the same way on the first outlet, but then started second guessing myself as I started installing the second one today. Never hurts to ask!

I know from removing the original boxes that the wire was one and the same so yes, just power in and out to the next in line.  

That's good information about the GFIC - I do have one in the vanity.  When I'm ready to test that's VALUABLE information if I don't have power.  You may have just saved me hours of hair pulling ;-)

[John "T" Nordhoff]

WOW great questions, you are REALLY getting into this.

NOTE I will do my best to answer your great and very technical questions BUT I DO NOT INTEND TO OFFEND ANYONE only help and provide the best info I have, which hopefully doesn’t offend you or anyone else.  NOTE I NEVER USED NOR SPECIFIED ANY SELF GROUNDING RECEPTACLES I grounded my receptacles the better way ie A GROUND SCREW

1) FIRST you just added info we didn’t have before and it drastically changes things because THE PICTURE SHOWS THAT RECEPTACLE IS  A “SELF GROUNDING RECEPTACLE” which is far different then a standard receptacle which (I assumed you purchased absent other info you provided) has a top green grounding  terminal. Your shown receptacle is to allow receptacle grounding via that brass looking tab making approved physical contact with an ALREADY PROPERLY GROUNDED metal box.  But if you still use a top screw for grounding that's great !!!!!!!!!!!! that's better then relying on the tab alone WELL DUH

2) The very first and foremost requirement IS THE BOX BE PROPERLY GROUNDED and that’s by a screw in the rear attached to the equipment grounding conductor as shown in the picture below:

Boxwithscrew

3) Then if it’s a standard receptacle (NOT a self grounding like your picture) the way the receptacle gets grounded is via a wire to the top green grounding screw

Boxandoutlet

4) When I saw you attempting (even if not  proper or approved) to “ground” the box using the top n bottom mounting screws I suggested any insulation (like paper or the plastic you now show) should be removed to get rid of any insulation to improve metal to metal contact. Recall the purpose of the top n bottom screws is to physically mount the outlet to the box NOT in any way shape or form ground the box or receptacle, that’s a non starter, the code doesn’t even consider those screws as “ground” screws, they’re ONLY for mounting purposes.

5) If you look that “self grounding” receptacle you show has flat NOT bevel heads plus that brass looking tab which is used to ground the receptacle to an already NEC approved and proper grounded box. That’s a far cry from the bevel headed mounting screws intended ONLY for mounting NOT grounding whatsoever. The NEC nor any inspectors wouldn’t consider use of the “mounting” screws for grounding purposes, the NEC doesn’t forbid it, it’s just NEVER EVEN A CONSIDERATION LOL

6) Even with a “self grounding” receptacle if it still has a top green grounding terminal I WOULD STILL USE THAT to ground the outlet instead of relying on the brass tab BUT YOU STILL NEED FIRST AND FOREMOST A PROPER GROUNDED BOX  !!!!!!!!!!!!!! and that’s NOT properly accomplished by a self grounding receptacle, its more to ground a "self grounding" receptacle to the box NOT ground the box to the receptacle. If it has the green top screw Id use it NOT the self ground feature (but still leave it in place as it makes good box to receptacle contact).

 

NOTE for a discussion of all this take a look at :

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-ac-dc/322611-metal-boxes-grounding.html

 

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO the brass looking tab on a "self grounding" receptacle is to ground a receptacle to an already properly grounded box.

6) YOUR OPTIONS If the recp has the top grounding screw and its bonded to the ground wire, with that brass tab THATS FAR BETTER THEN OTHERWISE AS THATS A MUCH BETTER CONTACT THEN A TRADITIONAL RECEPTACLE SO LEAVE THE BRASS IN PLACE. The design of the self grounding receptacle with that tab and flat not bevel screws is better then the other situation I thought you had GO FOR IT 

7) Those side tabs are intended to be broken off to separate top n bottom outlets for use on “Multiwire Branch Circuits” which no way Im getting into now  JUST LEAVE THEM AS IS ATTACHED  

 

   AGAIN THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO OFFEND YOU OR ANYONE

 

John T

[John "T" Nordhoff]

 PS  Dawn,

  Just to rest your mind, use of that "self grounding" receptacle and its brass metal tab PROVIDED you still attach a ground wire to the green grounding screw, does a darn good job of grounding the box even if NOT NEC approved and even if an Inspector wouldn't approve it. PLUS its ten times better then a feeble attempt at grounding the box relying only on the top n bottom bevel headed "mounting screws" in a regular receptacle which in no way creates any legal or reliable box ground via the receptacle ground, although sure its done (even if NOT by professional electricians and NOT NEC approved) and still has some effect of box grounding. 

 

  They make "self grounding" receptacles (like your picture) but they DO NOT make self grounding boxes. The RIGHT and NEC and Inspector approved method of box and receptacle grounding is like shown in the pictures I posted and the discussion I posted IE you first and foremost MUST ground the box and then you ground the receptacle preferably via the ground screw as in the picture versus the quicker cheaper way of ONLY using a "self grounding" receptacles brass tab to the box. Its intended for receptacle NOT box grounding even though sure its still a good electrical contact (otherwise they wouldn't allow it to ground the receptacle)

  I wouldn't loose sleep over a box grounded via a properly grounded "self grounding receptacle" with the brass tab, even if not 100% correct as your receptacle is still grounded and that's more critical. GO FOR IT

 HOWEVER maybe on the next receptacles you could consider doing it 100% perfect BUT in an RV there's so little slack grrrrrrrrrrr it may be hard

 PS Terry, your are CORRECT

  That removable side tab is for use on "Multi Wire Branch Circuits" where Phase A serves the top outlet and Phase B the bottom BUT THERES 240 VOLTS IN THE BOX NOW !!!!!!!!!!!  It saves time money and labor because you can get by running only one Neutral versus two to an outlet. I NEVER liked them in residential where Billy Bob and Bubba had no idea what was going on and no idea 240 was in there, its for professional electricians who know what's going on

 Best wishes and God Bless all here

 John T