Grumman - Load bearing walls or support needed?

[Paul]

Hi all.

These 2 images show, more or less, the shape the interior is in, in my Grumman.

I know a few of you have done fairly extensive restorations and I was hoping to get some input.

As you can see the roof is not supported except by the walls forward of the bathroom.

In fact the bathroom wall is just attached to wood strips screwed to the side of the fiberglassed wood (?) ribs that run across the roof. These panels or walls do not appear to support the roof at all.

So the big question is....

Are the walls load bearing or do I need to add some support? The roof is clearly very very heavy.

I am eventually trying to make the layout as open plan as possible.

The other thing is it would appear that the channels at the wall bottom where it meets the floor was designed to take a 2 by and be used to frame the wall up.

The previous owner told me he removed no framing and that's just how it was made. Yikes!

Under the window you see there were two vertical pieces of wood joining the two horizontal ones that I replaced due to rot BUT there was no wood that reached either the floor of the ceiling.

I am planning on framing these walls but the big question is whether the roof needs support or if the walls are designed as is to do that?

Thanks in advance for the help!!

PS the window in the 2nd picture is covered and has a small fridge under it and a blue tote lid.

[Paul]

Kirk.

A quick update. Not too much happening but about to get busy again hopefully.

Been raining every evening for an age. I did rebuild the 4bbl carb. It was not a new install as I was told but a crusty old monster with a previous bad rebuild. The vacuum side backing plate was completely missing and the gaskets were all shot. Crud caked in it everywhere. Anyways its ready to go back on now.

I was out there two nights ago measuring up for a pull out bed and told the girlfriend about my progress to which she replied " get it running first!"

Shes right of course. In the next couple of days ( weather permitting ) I'll install the carb and the transmission cooler. Thinking of connecting a boat gas tank with a primer bulb to get her running. I still need to empty the last of the crap from the tank which probably means dropping it.

Hows things with you? Good I hope. Any more projects end up in your yard since the last post?

[Kirk C Hoffman]

Hi Paul, 

    I was going to write to you the other evening, but fell asleep before that happened! I wish I could find out why that happens so much. I told my Dr. about it and he wants to do a sleep study. Somehow Spending the night in the damned hospital sleeping in some old rock hard hospital bed, wired up with all kinds of sensors and crap doesn't sound all that wonderful to me! I am pretty sure the problem is caused by having to get up to pee every hour on the hour. Sometimes I can go 2 or 3 hours between potty breaks, and now ant then I can go all night with no breaks . The medical profession up here is a joke! I really believe I'd be better off going to the Vet! 

    I have a 12 gallon boat tank in my RV, and it serves the purpose! It's in the entry hall right next to the furnace, so I don't dare light that up! I want to make up a new tank from aluminum to replace the rusty old steel tank. I haven't done anything with it on months. 

    I don't remember if I told you I sold the airplane to a guy from Kentucky, it mostly left here at the end of May, there are still a few parts left that he wants to come back for. Then in July I sold my old Johnson boat to a guy from Indiana, Now we're trying to find someone who can transport it for him. It starts to look like I get to swap the trailer it's on to the other better trailer. I'll have to change the rollers  from the old trailer to the new one. the old trailer is one I built by going from the original trailer that was all bent and twisted because the boat had sat and gotten full of water! Trying to measure the old one got me a few wrong dimensions, and the darned thing ended up too long for the boat. The rear end is sitting right on the top of the roller at the back and I'm afraid moving it to Indy would make it roll forward enough to drop to the trailer frame and bust up the bottom of the boat. I don't like the fact that the whole boat is supported only by 4 rollers, there are no normal bunks under it. 

    I have accumulated 4 more lawn and garden tractors! I always wanted an International Cub Lowboy. I found one for what I thought was a good price, but had to put in a new clutch assembly so far!  I thought that being an International, it should be a well built tractor! That's what I get for thinking, LOL! This thing is a put together collection of spare parts! It has the right Cub 4 cylinder engine, but it's actually more garden tractor from the engine back. It even has a lawn mower style starter/generator instead of a real starter! the clutch is on the front of the transmission and there is a shaft from the engine that drives the clutch disc. BACKWARDS! I mowed with it one day, and it did a really good job of pulling my Toro gang mower. Except it takes about 2 acres to turn around. The next time I went to us it, the clutch won't release! I think I must have put too much grease on the throwout bearing! Now I get to pull that back apart and clean off all the grease! then I discovered the rear main seal is leaking too! My profit margin on that one keeps getting smaller! I got a Cub Cadet 104 in that deal too, the engine was stuck, but it turned out to be from mice trying to live in the blower housing. I got it loosened up ands it runs pretty well. I think it will be the first one to get a new owner! I put new tires on the front and had to use a puller to get the front spindles out to clean them up and loosen them up enough to steer! I don't think either of those tractors had seen any grease since they left the dealer!

    Then I got crazy and picked up 2 more Airens tractors along with a 48" snowblower, a 48" mowing deck, and a 54" dozer blade. I just got the best one of the 2 finished today it has a Kohler 18 HP Magnum engine and sounds great! The Hydraulics all work and it has new power steering hoses!  Power steering is a must with the blower on the front! The other Ariens needs the transmission replaced. The previous owner had taken this trans and stuck it into the other tractor. I guess the original had started leaking oil at one of the shift shaft seals. So, this makes 5 running Ariens tractors in my collection, and still 3 that need going through. I'm hoping I can buy and sell some of this old lawn equipment to keep my head above water. I sort of miss the paychecks I used to get from my job! 

     We haven't had much rain at all this year! I've lived here for 24 years and this is the first time I didn't have to wait for my low spot to dry out enough to mow without leaving huge ruts. They've been getting some pretty nasty storms North of here, but we get a few drops! I'm surprised the corn is doing so well!  Some fields look great, but there are some that are pretty sad looking! The farmers are not going to have a big profit year this year!

      Well, I guess I've gone on long enough, and I'm betting you're getting tired of reading all this stuff, so, I'll sign off for now. You take care and keep me posted. Talk to you soon.             Kirk

[Paul]

Kirk

Sounds like you have your hands full for a while!

Glad you are doing relatively well over there.

Will post an update soon.Cheers!

Paul

[Kirk C Hoffman]

Hi Paul, 

     I got the cub Lowboy back in the shop yesterday and pulled the clutch, sure enough it was covered with grease, so, I sprayed it all off with brake cleaner and hope I got all the grease off it!  Then I took off the flywheel and the rear main oil seal. New seal ordered. As long as I'm into it I'm boing to replace the PTO bearings while I can get at them. Never a dull moment. Have a good one and take care. Tal

k to you soon. Kirk

[Paul]

I finally have week off to work on the beast.

Just not getting any gas to the carb. The mechanical pump looks new. Maybe theres a filter inline somewhere that's clogged? 

I'll post an update if I make any progress. 

Is that cub running like new yet?

[Kirk C Hoffman]

Hi Paul,

       I don't know what the heck is going on with this computer, it isn't showing a reply button for your latest post! So, I'll just reply to this one!

       Well, I got tired of messing with that old Cub tractor, it found a new home up in Manitowoc, Wi. I might have actually gotten my money back on it! Yesterday I ran over to Beloit, WI and bought a fairly nice Atlas Lathe, I think I can make a few bucks with it too. Maybe, if I can keep this up not having a job might not be so bad!

        There could well be a filter between the tank and pump, I usually install one, somehow it makes sense to me to keep the bad stuff out of the pump! I don't know why they don't put one on from the factory. Another thing that helps on these beasts is an electric fuel pump installed in conjunction with the mechanical. They are great for starting after it's been sitting for a long time, just use the electric pump to prime the carb instead of cranking the engine till the carb gets full! once it starts shut off the electric and run on the mechanical pump. Lots of the bigger gas trucks were set up that way.  Pull your gas line off the carb and make see if you are getting gas there, I have had the float valve stick in the carb and not let gas in. Easy fix on a Holley, just unscrew the needle valve and pop it out then make sure it isn't sticking. Put it back in and get it close to the same height it was set at, you can do a final fuel level adjustment once it's running. Sometimes this modern gas sometimes makes them stick! I'm pretty sure that replacement valves use a different kind of rubber point that doesn't stick, it's usually the older carbs that do. NAPA sells the needle valves separately so you won't need to buy a full carb kit!

       I learned my lesson with that Cub, NEVER again! That rear seal leak it had was because the die cast housing the seal fits in was worn. I didn't even have to work too hard to get the old seal out, just took a little pick and lifted it out of there. it had pushed back and was contacting the flywheel and I think it was spinning in the housing bore. When I put ion the new seal I bottomed it in the housing where it fit tight like it should then poured in a bunch of Locktite around it to lock it in there. It should hold, I hope! At least it's not leaking now! 

        Keep me posted on your gas situation, shouldn't be too bad to figure out, Good Luck. Talk to you soon.    Kirk 

[Paul]

Same here no reply button for you either.

Looks like retirement is working out for you. That's good to hear!

I had previously all but emptied the gas tank. Probably a gallon or two in the bottom. The intention was to drop in and look at it but that's a lot of work so yesterday I took my 15 gallons of old gas to the recycle place that had been sitting round for months.

Then instead of dropping the tank I put 15 gallons of fresh gas in my now empty cans and refilled it.

I dont know what I was thinking.

Anyways I connected a boat on deck tank with a squeeze ball to the pick up side of the fuel pump. The pump works.

My newly rebuild carb leaked gas everywhere but nowhere. I couldnt see any place it was coming out but the body and spacer base unit were soaked. Very weird.

Like I'd dipped it in gas.  Still cant get my head around that.

Anyways the gas isn't getting from the tank to the pump.. So I drained it again ready to drop it in the am. I was thinking of putting an air line on the fuel hose and blowing back towards the tank to see if it dislodges something.

I have no idea what sort of pick up it has. The fuel line

( steel ) comes from the top of the tank then splits and the 2 lines run front to the engine and across to the generator.

Trying to drop the tank will just bust those lines. Theres no way to get to the top of the tank without dropping it and theres crossmembers that they sit ontop of.

So in the morning I'll trace them and see if I can loosen the further away from th he tank and wiggle so I can save them. Its gonna be a big PITA.

The only thing I saw in the IH shop manual for fuel starvation was a bad gas cap. But it doesnt give a part number so I couldn't get one if I tried. The one one there now is not original. You can hear the tank pop  and buckle all the time. For the longest time I thought it was the bodywork reacting to heat and cold but no it's the gas tank.

If I try to crank for a minute or two then remove the gas cap the pressure relief is insane.

Again I'll keep you posted. 

I did replace some old rubber gas line sections and had to put a new filler neck extension on. So I achieved something at least!

[Kirk C Hoffman]

Hi Paul, 

    It looks like Good Old RV's "Improved" something on the website! No reply button WTF?

     Anyway, you must have a lot different gas tank than I have on mine. It takes 65 gallons to fill tis thing up! Is yours a pickup style thin tin tank? You said you filed it with 15 gallons , Makes me wonder if they might have just put a pickup tank on there That would sure cut down the travel range at 10 MPG! I wouldn't worry much about the old gas lines, just replace them with rubber lines. At least I've had pretty good luck doing that on my old rusty stuff! There has to be some kind of obstruction in there somewhere. I was thinking that dropping my tank was going to be a real pain, but Grumman made me a very happy camper that day. those long bolts that draw up the straps were stainless steel so the 3 inches of threads were not rusted and the nuts pretty much just unscrewed! With a little luck you might get lucky too! They seem to have used a lot of S.S. fasteners on this one.

  Well, I got that lathe unloaded out of my old van and on it's own legs again, I re-arranged my garage a little and found a corner for it to be in. It does have a few issues, broken handles on the carriage, that I'll need to repair before I can re-sell it. The last one this style I had my hands on, I had bought for $250, and e-Bayed it for $1250. This could do the same! Mostly it looks to be in good condition!

     Well, keep me posted on your gas situation! Talk to you soon. Kirk

[Paul]

Kirk

I guess I worded that wrong. There was only 15 gallons that I siphoned out of the tank. It wasnt full. I have the same tank as you I'm guessing.

I'm thinking I'm taking the day off from the RV having spent 2 days to achieve practically nothing.

I dont know why the carb I rebuild leaked like it was sweating gas. I dont know which vacuum lines I should have or where they should go and I dont know if I should try to drop the tank.

Maybe ill take a look again tomorrow but at this point I'm over it. It's frustrating to have wasted so much time.

The most ill try today is blow some air thru the lines. 

Good luck with the lathe!

[Paul]

Kirk
Ok. So obviously I'm feeling despondent over this. Lol. Anyways I just went out and took another look.

The tank is fitted in a way that the metal gas lines are fitted as one piece from the top center of the tank all the way thru to where they need to go ( fuel pump and generator) The top of the tank is pretty much right up against the floor of the RV. You can maybe slide a hand in the gap but not enough to grab anything.

I would have to cut the lines as close to the tank as I could and even then the lines still on the tank would get bent to hell when I dropped it. Theres crossmember in the way between where they attach and where I could cut them.

The bolts that hold the tank drop into a u shaped crossmember. There isn't room to remove those bolts are far as I can see. So trying to get the nuts back on unless they are spot welded in place would be a huge PITA. Also the bolts are not long enough to back off and give some working space and the gap to insert them isn't enough for me to remove them and put longer ones in.

It looks like the way to do it would be cut out the floor and aluminum sub floor above the tank. That way I could remove the lines and drop the tank intact. I DO NOT want to do that!
You said you dropped your tank. How did you do it?

When they build a chassis and put a body on it makes things difficult. One other place I noticed this was the seatbelt anchors. They bolt down thru the poop hose storage. The passenger side has an access door on that storage area. You can reach in and get to the nuts. The drivers side- no access door. So unless your arms are 10 ft long your not getting to them. Lol.

Well that's it for now.
Let me know how you dropped that tank incase I'm missing something obvious!

Cheers!
Paul

[Kirk C Hoffman]

Hi Paul,

      That's how I was feeling about my tank till I actually started  on it. Mine has bolts that are through the hangars that are about 3 1/2 inches long, with nuts on the bottom of them. There are 3 straps that hold the tank up, so 6 of those long ass bolts to loosen. I made up a deep socket by sawing off an old deep socket and welding it to another one. That was enough to reach the nuts and to my surprise they came right off, I LOVE Stainless Steel! My tank is on the drivers side on the outside of the frame, it is a little more than 4 feet long X 21 inches wide and about 10 inches deep. Made of heavy steel and weighs a bunch. I used a floor jack to lower it and get it back up in there. I filled it with water and washing soda then hooked a battery charger to a piece of threaded rod, with the other lead to the tank itself. I'm thinking I had the positive to the rod, after a few hours the rod was covered with grunge that was in the tank. After about a week of cleaning the rod off and putting it back in it started coming out clean. I flushed out all the soda with water then let it sit in the sun for a few days to dry it out. then took the shop vac and sucked up everything I could find in there. I should have done a liner, but couldn't afford it at the time. Now It's probably worse than it was when I started,. because the soda wash takes everything off down to dare steel! I'm actually scared to look in there! I have a 50 gallon tank off another RV that mounts between the frame rails behind the rear axle, but that's where my black water tank is! I wish I could use it! 

     Well, good luck with that project! Have you tried blowing the line out with air? Maybe there is something plugging it up. I had an old Buick that I bought out of a field years ago, the gas cap was off when I got it, after a while the gas line would plug about every 20 miles, I would crawl under pull the line off the pump and blow like heck till it opened up. Finally got tired of that and dropped the tank. Pulled the filter assembly out and was looking at the remains of a mouse family that had moved in when the cap was off! Cleaned that up and never had trouble again. I don't even like to think about blowing on that gas line though!  Talk to you soon, Kirk

[Paul]

Kirk
Yep my tank is the same as yours. Like I said it's not dropping it. Its dropping it without tearing up all the gas lines.
I like your cleaning tips!

I didnt mess with it today. I took on another project instead. My 20 year old 16-38 HXL Toro wheelhorse has been sitting waiting for a new drive belt to be installed. It's kind of a PITA because you have to drop the deck completely unless you use a chain pull on the front end and just drop the front end of it.Sharpened the blades while I had the deck off too.

Tomorrow I'll pull the compressor out the workshop and get it close enough to the RV to blow the fuel line back and see if anything happens.
If that doesnt fix it I'll be dropping the tank!

Now the other weird thing is that with the gas cap on the tank it will self vacuum. Whenever you undo the cap the suction of air is crazy. I dont know if that means its blocked? Never had a tank do that before.

I really appreciate all the help you are sending my way!
Paul