Need help with RV electrical outlet...not like a household outlet?

[Dawn Michelle]

Hi all - 

Decided I would tackle replacing two of the outlets myself (they don't screw into the wall - the box hole was cut too large and one actually shows a melted insert).  So I ordered RV outlets (which match what are in there) but they don't come with instructions and every YouTube video I have reviewed look nothing like these (no side screws) and I can't get out the existing ones because the big wire runs into the top and out the bottom - not smaller wires that hook into the back or side of the outlets in the videos.  

These are the ones that have two catty corner screws and I guess their own housing?

Not finding any slack to move the outlet more than half an inch from the wall and I can't seem to reverse engineer from the new one to figure out how to potentially release it. There is a back fit piece with side clips, and I've loosened those but to no avail.  Certainly don't want to force it - so hoping someone here has these type of outlets and can walk me through the process?

I'm going to continue to google and maybe I can find some diagrams - I'll post if I get anywhere.

Thanks!

Dawn

[Dawn Michelle]

I ended up going with 15 amp to match my breakers (one is a 20 - I do have to identify that but I'm guessing that's that's the one in the kitchen cabinet as that's next to where a microwave was).  Won't plug in anything I shouldn't however before I get that sorted out.

So I got a metal box 1 1/2 inch deep that should work and an oversized face plate as the cutouts were already too big.  Hopefully the metal won't be too heavy for the thin paneling!  

Going to just go get my first box in, run in the wire - and strip and secure both outlets before checking the wires to determine what's hot and what's not :-)

Step at a time - that's me!

[Lakota Wolf]

John T is the go to guy with *Lectricity stuff.

[Rich Thomas]

Can we get an amen! Thank you john T.

[Dawn Michelle]

And, I got my first outlet in.  The metal box was a breeze to fit and the paneling while thin is in good shape (in hindsight why not, but that had me most concerned at the store), but wiring the outlet itself was a struggle.

The angle was difficult as I'm right handed and the box in the kitchen had a wall close to the right side - and the wires, while not extremely short, certainly didn't give me much working room.  Looping the wires looked SO easy in all the videos!  

For once I was fortunate and actually had what I needed in my toolbox for pairing the ground wires (the green wire nut with the hole - that lets you thread one through while screwing the second to it) or it would have meant another trip to the hardware store.

I side wired - there were plates - I could have tried to back wire I suppose as it had those, but the loops were tricky to get on as it was?  Maybe because of the plates that kept wanting to slip down into that space between the screw and the box.  Not really sure - just it felt like I was fighting wires for 45 minutes. Ultimately though I got them looped, tightened around, and then well secured with the screws metal to metal with no sheathing stuck up under them.  Pushed back in and after replacing a couple of working box screws (heads too fat) got the faceplate to fit 'snug enuff'!

Tomorrow morning I have the pump housing to finish and hopefully will get the second outlet in - then I can test and see if she burns down!  Okay, let's assume that is NOT going to happen.  But I'll be close by the breaker, have someone at the plugin - and have the fire extinguisher and cell phone handy.  Fire station is right down the street.

Then assuming no burnt smells (seriously - i don't expect any - I was pretty careful and was pleased with the result) my next step is to test everything.  I've had the electricity on, but only for short times while testing lights, water pump (12v) and a/c. I'll feel much better knowing those two outlets are probably now going to be in better shape than the remaining ones (just three - which I may replace those as well just for giggles).  But first I'll see if there is anything squirrely with the current and run down which breakers run which outlets.

Let me know if it sounds like I've forgotten anything important!?

[John "T" Nordhoff]

  WOW you're gonna be a master electrician by the time you're through, will you come rewire the rest of my outlets?? FYI if you have a 15 amp branch circuit (14 Gauge wire protected by 15 amp circuit breaker) its still permissible to install a higher rated receptacle such as a 20 amp in a high current or often used location. I might do that if the particular outlet was used for say a 1500 watt space heater or hair dryer even if its overkill. Those green wire nuts with a top hole like you indicated are great for splicing Bare/Green "Equipment Grounding Conductors" leaving a pigtail for connection to the top Green grounding conductor on a receptacle. Metallic junction or outlet (handy) boxes need independently grounded you know, usually accomplished by a green grounding screw pigtail into the threaded hole in the box rear.

 YOU DONE GOOD pat yourself on the back. Many would take the easy route.

 I bet Lakota man would agree if you're travelling way out West in the boonies out of cell phone coverage YOU BETTER HAVE YOUR ACT TOGETHER

 John T Old Conservative Fuddy Duddy

[Dawn Michelle]

Okay John - now I am a little confused - so I better ask you to clarify.  

I used the metal junction box (calling it a work box) but saw no green grounding screw on the back.  There were two metal plates on the back inside that were obviously used to connect in the big wire run, but I didn't use them....

I connected the green wire nut to the two unsheathed copper ground wires pulling the one through before tightening both with the wire nut, then looping and tightening the solo I'd pulled through on the green screw onto the outlet assembly.

The outlet of course screws in two places to the box, and the box screws in four places just to the paneling.  I suppose I could have screwed the outlet also to the four points but it didn't look like it wanted to line up just right and I didn't want to add any more stress to the paneling.

So are you telling me I haven't grounded my work box correctly?

Otherwise I will say I didn't test the wires after cutting because it seemed testing ac was a different and more serious business than 12v dc.  I decided to go with the norm - white neutral/silver/long side of the plugin and black/hot/short side/brass and then test polarity after installation.  It seemed I wasn't going to burn anything down if my wires were reversed, and I would need to test all my outlets anyway to ensure there are no other issues up and down the circuit?

Yeah, verizon, testing out refurbished weboost 4g cell boosters now and then I have to figure out the best antenna - seems directional yagis are recommended but maybe a good trucker's omni might work as well. Will have sprint/t-mobile for backup and use wifi when I have the opportunity.  Going to just pay as I need it - little more pricey per G but I will only need it a few months out of the year.  I'd really like a marine antenna for wifi but too pricey.  Going to just take a chance on the wifi camp pro.  One thing when you make a mistake buying an RV outlet, quite enough when it comes to electronics and gulp, solar - LOL!

[Rich Thomas]

I think Johns concern is to make sure the box it's self is grounded. If your outlet frame (what you screw to the box) has continuity with the green screw, when you screw it to the box, the box will be grounded as well. Using a metal box has one set back, and that is; if the hot lead would to have a bare spot coming in contact with it, the box if ungrounded will become hot and a potential health risk. 

[Dawn Michelle]

Ah, understood.  Yes.  The box is grounded because the outlet frame is grounded (via the green screw) and subsequently screwed to the box with the provided mounting screws.  Got it. :-)  THANKS ALL!

I'll probably follow up here with a final report, or may do a blog at the end of the weekend.  Hope everyone has an awesome holiday weekend.  Camping no doubt??!!!

[John "T" Nordhoff]

  Dawn, Okay here's the deal I'M JUST THE MESSENGER LOL

 You ask  "So are you telling me I haven't grounded my work box correctly?"

   YES    I'M TELLING YOU THE BOX ISNT GROUNDED CORRECTLY PER THE NEC AS I RECALL BUT IM LONG RETIRED AND RUSTY ON IT SO NO WARRANTY IT MAY HAVE CHANGED???  BUT I SURE DOUBT IT !!!!!

 The NEC (at least when I practiced) DID NOT permit box grounding by the fact the receptacle was grounded and then its attached by the tiny maybe not real tight top n bottom mounting screws into the metal box EVEN THOUGH that can indeed conduct electricity. In the back of the rectangular metal handy box didn't you find a threaded hole??? They make green wire pigtails with a green screw that screws into that threaded hole and then it splices with the other ground wires including one for the outlets top terminal. I know for sure the NEC requires bonding the outlets top green screw to a ground wire even though sure the fact its mounted top n bottom to the box and if the box is grounded so is that top screw BUT THAT DONT CUT IT and that's the same reason the NEC doesn't allow the box grounding via the outlets top n bottom screws, which can have paper between there ya know.

 The reason for the independent box grounding is to provide a direct dedicated low impedance return path for fault current which can be hundreds of amps for a short time so that's why direct approved connections and methods are required and NOT via less reliable possibly higher resistance connections like the top n bottom outlet mounting screws which are thin and wimpy and may be loose and NOT nearly as reliable as a direct to box bond...

 HOWEVER NOW LISTEN WITH ALL THAT BEING SAID !!!!!!!! How you did it is often done (prob not by professional electricians)  and I may have even done it, I'm NOT all that worried about it because the outlet is still grounded and so will be appliances plugged into it and that's the higher risk. Its ONLY the box that isn't as well or improperly grounded and it still has somewhat of a ground due to the metal outlet mounting screws, even if not NEC approved method.

 The fact that your replaced those crappy RV outlets makes you 1000% safer regardless if there's only one very minor NEC violation 

 I still think its NOT NEC approved but I wouldn't worry much if ONLY the box may not be perfect grounded as long as the receptacle is BUT I HAD TO TELL YOU MY PROFESSIONAL OPINION now its your decision not mine

  John T

[John "T" Nordhoff]

PS after a rest lol I'm almost sure I'm correct above IE its NOT NEC approved but still Id loose no sleep over it as its ONLY the box that's not properly grounded. Those top n bottom outlet mount screws are beveled and don't make good contact to the receptacles plus, they have a small piece of paper under them ITS JUST NOT AS GOOD as a short can cause hundreds of amps a short time and a poor high resistance connection will burn open and NOT cause the breaker to trip and clear the fault and the box may remain LIVE AND HOT. Compare that connection to the green ground into the box screws with that copper wire ring under the screw making good contact direct to the box, that's a much better bond then the thin bevel top n bottom screws and the paper. 

 NUFF SAID you still have a much better set up then before

 John T

[Dawn Michelle]

Yeah - there were two strapping pieces that screwed in that were obviously to hold wire down, but the screw in the middle of each were not green–so I didn't clue in. 

I'll do my second box correctly and think on the first.  My fear is if I remove it I may strip out the holes in the paneling and then I'll really have a job to get the outlet back in.  But yes, completely doable.  I can even steal a little grounding wire from my dinette wiring as there is plenty there.

Did some reading up on it and looked online at pics - I can see that it's low risk as you said.  

Is there a way to take off the faceplate and use a multimeter to check the box itself for grounding since we have some screws in there now?  I see how to check an outlet...and was going to go through and do all my outlets once back together - but not sure that translates?  Red in hot, black on the side of the box instead of grounding hole?  

Thinking I could check periodically...course what is that about creative solutions should never be permanent?!!  I should just take a line out of Pretty Woman..."I'm a safety girl!"  

[John "T" Nordhoff]

 Dawn, I fear I may be "overthinking" or over doing this, you're in pretty good shape as is. I think what you're referring to is the top n bottom romex clamps (with hold down screws) that secure the unstripped romex (non metallic sheathed cable) coming into the box. That's NOT what I'm talking about (but can still work and better then nothing) when I say in the rear there may be a small threaded hole (NOT any green screw, just a threaded hole) into which those greenie grounding pigtails bond to the box for proper box grounding. They are about 5 inches of green wire with a green screw on the end  that goes into the rear of box threaded hole THATS PROPER BOX GROUNDING but again I wouldn't tear things out its only the box grounding that may not be quite up to perfect.

 You can use a simple light continuity tester or an ohm meter to see if the outlets ground pin and the bare/green ground wire has low resistance (almost like a zero ohms dead short) continuity to the metal box, and the fact the outlet is grounded and its screwed into the box will likely show the box is grounded BUT THATS NOT THE ISSUE as the purpose of proper grounding is for short circuits when there is extreme high current and heat and that's when a wimpy improper ground bond (like the small top n bottom outlet to box screws) will fail while an NEC approved ground may not...  

 I wouldn't be afraid to use what you have, it can help if you tear out or crush the small paper strips on the top n bottom small outlet mounting screws to make a better box ground as having the metal on the outlets pushed tight against the box still provides a decent box ground even if NOT perfect and NOT NEC approved.

 Look in back of box for a threaded hole then buy those grounding pigtails (in sacks of 25 or so at big box hardware stores) which are a short piece of green wire with a green screw on one end that goes in the threaded hole in back of box. If none exist in your box a screw that holds the romex clamps is a decent place to install them.

 Lets stop over worrying this lol  

 John T  Just how an old engineer thinks, I cant help myself lol All those NEC seminars over the years have me over cautious